Hypothetical: 2009 Season Results

[cmhatter]

What a thoughtful person you are!

I'm going to have to call you Socrates because you think things through so much.

So...Socrates.  Please explain Bob Stoops' slide.  You know, he and Jim were co-defensive coordinators together at Kansas State.  Do you think it's a flaw in Bill Snyder's mentoring program?

PS...For someone that didn't want to reply to me you sure wrote out a lot of, well, masturbation.

crazy how different their career paths went....

So you agree taking the USF start up job was a mistake?

not at all

[Rizman]

What a thoughtful person you are!

I'm going to have to call you Socrates because you think things through so much.

So...Socrates.  Please explain Bob Stoops' slide.  You know, he and Jim were co-defensive coordinators together at Kansas State.  Do you think it's a flaw in Bill Snyder's mentoring program?

PS...For someone that didn't want to reply to me you sure wrote out a lot of, well, masturbation.

Really, that response was what you could come up with.  You just look defensive and immature. 

[Who'sYourData?]

Now wait a minute.

You can't have it both ways.  If you want to talk about career paths then obviously it was a mistake for Leavitt to take the USF job.  Jim was the first to leave KSU to take the USF job.  Had he held out maybe he would have been the one former University of Missouri Athletic Director Joe Castiglione would have hired at Oklahoma instead of Stoops.

I highly doubt Oklahoma would have taken Leavitt.  Stoops is a much better interview.  Leavitt needed to demonstrate he could be a head coach at a lower level first.

If Leavitt made a bad career move, it was not taking the Alabama job.

[IncrediBULL]

What a thoughtful person you are!

I'm going to have to call you Socrates because you think things through so much.

So...Socrates.  Please explain Bob Stoops' slide.  You know, he and Jim were co-defensive coordinators together at Kansas State.  Do you think it's a flaw in Bill Snyder's mentoring program?

PS...For someone that didn't want to reply to me you sure wrote out a lot of, well, masturbation.

Wow, you are the sensitive type.  Different coaches slide for different reasons.  Tell me why Bobby Bowden went from having a top 10 team, and winning his conf and NC's to a place where his biggest boosters and supporters asked for his resignation.  I'd say that in bobby's case, the game changed and he didn't put teh right assistants in place, or change them enough with the right guys, or he didn't let them do their jobs.  Not sure which one as I am not intimite with the program.

As for Bob Stoops, I don't follow that program closely, so I would not begin to speculate.  I like Bob Stoops (just like I like CJL).

In CJL's case, I think he hit a ceiling and could not break through it.  He had the talent on the team, but could not get the most out of it.  Maybe it was his motivational style, the same one that carried us this far, may have hurt him in the past few seasons.  But he did bump his head on the ceiling (yes, a bit of a pun) each of the past three seasons and could not get over the hump.  How do you beat an Auburn who beats UF at home, and still lose some winnable BE games.  Why were we one of the most penalized teams, where is the discipline?  There are many, many  reasons I think CJL could not get over the hump.  Not a slam on CJL, as I said, I still like him and think another up and coming program would benefit from him being their and developing their program.  But he clearly made mistakes.

[IncrediBULL]

Addendum for Socrates...

Since you are such and thoughtful and logical person, please tell me what you like about Holtz that makes you think he'll be a great coach?  Is it his bowl record or is it his overall record of 72-50?

Exactly what is it about Skip Holtz that has you so excited?

Where to start.  Hmm. If I picked one thing that brought Leavitt down, it was't his coaching or on field antics.  It was his biter battle with the media.  He was not a warm guy and alienated BM who made it his mission to take him, and the program down.  Holtz, the media loves.  And I mean loves.

I got calls from ECU supporters I know who were very sad we got Hotlz.  They word they used for him in their area was "beloved".  He will be a great ambassador for USF and the program.

We have had our share of off field antics with the kids over years.  Yes all programs have that, but it our past coaching did not deal with those situations.  Drugs, arrests, etc, were tolerated with slaps on the hand.  Holtz got rid of Ford in a matter of months, and look waht happened to Ford.  Yes, the battery was dropped, but still, it would have been yet another infraction from a person with bad judgment (MF).

The players are excited about getting a water break in the middle of practice.  A water break.  You can be tough, but also be compasionate at the same time.  I am not sure CJL figured out the second half of that.  I know he cared about the guys, but I have talked to parents of past players who said that he was a bit extreme (not in a good way). 

This is not really a CJL thing, but with a lower Holtz salary, and incentives, he was afforded a bigger assistant coaching budget so he coudl bring in big guns.  Guys who have won conf championships.  Guys who were part of NC teams.  Guys who know how to compete in BCS conferences.    Due to CJL Loyalty and an inability to make changes, and a lack of budget, CJL wasn't able to assemble the staff he needed to get the job done.  One of his biggest mistakes IMHO.

Remember, while you attack people, we did not choose for Leavitt to go.  His fate was decided last fall based on whatever happpened in that locker room.  That was a personal choice he made.  You should keep it in perspective.

Overall, I didn't want a change, but we were thrust into one.  I think Holtz is a breah of fresh air in a program that had reached a plateau.  I have met him, I like him, and his personality is infectious.  He seems to be warm and caring, a sharp contrast from the last administration.  He had little to work with at Uconn and ECU and turned both of them into a winner.

Also, you asked me to name what Holtz has done.  I'll tell you, took a not so great ECU team and won their conference in back to back years.  We have not even approached winning our conference, despite fooling the country into thinking we were #2 at one point during a season before dropping 3 games.  If you recruit in Florida, the 4th largest state in population, with arguably the 3rd or 4th best talent, and cannot get in the top 3 of the 5th ranked BCS conference, you are not achieving what you could.  He had 6 season to recruit under a "BCS" moniker.  Yet our results last season were actually worse than a few years prior. 

Now I am just rambling, but I do support Holtz going forward 1000%.  He will get us to the next level within a few seasons, though he was left with a shell to work with.

My only sadness in this whole thing is that when we build our on campus stadium, it won't be  named for Leavitt nor will it have a statue of him out front, as the father of USF football.  But again, I didn't choose that fate for him. 

[IncrediBULL]

This question and poll appears to be a desperate attempt to erase the legacy of Jim Leavitt at the University of South Florida.  Skip Holtz hasn't even won or coached a single game and you're already trying to rewrite history.  Holtz is going to have his hands full living up to the expectations of many of you who most likely will be the first to turn on him when he doesn't.  At least see how the guy holds up through an entire season before you annoint him the heir apparent to Urban Meyer.  Judging from his bowl record he is going to have a very tough time being the world beater some of you make him out to be.

Not that I care enough to respond to your post, because you are supposedly CJL's friend,

Incredibull I believe you have your facts wrong.  Supposedly Mizzou was the roomate of some guy that was friends with Leavitt.  That makes Mizzou a groupie.

ahh, now that makes more sense.  He acts like his brother or something, being so defensive and attackign people for Leavitt.  The people on this board DID NOT FIRE Leavitt.  Leavitt chose his fate.  We have to move on.  What should we do, say "screw holtz, I want leavitt back"?  Seriously.  He is gone, we are moving on, we are excited about the future, it has given us time to reflect on the past (most of which was fantastic), and a breath of fresh air with what could become of our program.

Almost all sports magazines, analysts, etc, said that USF made the second best hire in coaching last season behind Brian Kelly at ND.  Some think UL did a bit better than us.  But I have not found a single one that didn't give us a thumbs up for this hire. 

[IncrediBULL]

What a thoughtful person you are!

I'm going to have to call you Socrates because you think things through so much.

So...Socrates.  Please explain Bob Stoops' slide.  You know, he and Jim were co-defensive coordinators together at Kansas State.  Do you think it's a flaw in Bill Snyder's mentoring program?

PS...For someone that didn't want to reply to me you sure wrote out a lot of, well, masturbation.

Really, that response was what you could come up with.  You just look defensive and immature. 

Exactly, I noticed the same thing.  Reminds me of the kind of person who would be at a party having a few drinks, end up in a sports debate that he cannot finish, who knows about what, pick a topic, maybe "should Farve retire".  Then as he could not win the debate through articulation of his thoughts, would instead "want to take it outside."  I've seen this type hundres of times in my lifetime, and in general it isn't worth the time.  But then again, it is fun to engage in the dialog. 

[IncrediBULL]

Now wait a minute.

You can't have it both ways.  If you want to talk about career paths then obviously it was a mistake for Leavitt to take the USF job.  Jim was the first to leave KSU to take the USF job.  Had he held out maybe he would have been the one former University of Missouri Athletic Director Joe Castiglione would have hired at Oklahoma instead of Stoops.

I highly doubt Oklahoma would have taken Leavitt.  Stoops is a much better interview.  Leavitt needed to demonstrate he could be a head coach at a lower level first.

If Leavitt made a bad career move, it was not taking the Alabama job.

I agree with that assertion.  While it would have been a set back at the time for USF, he would have been better off giving Alabama a shot.  Would of, Should of, Could of.

[IncrediBULL]

What a thoughtful person you are!

I'm going to have to call you Socrates because you think things through so much.

So...Socrates.  Please explain Bob Stoops' slide.  You know, he and Jim were co-defensive coordinators together at Kansas State.  Do you think it's a flaw in Bill Snyder's mentoring program?

PS...For someone that didn't want to reply to me you sure wrote out a lot of, well, masturbation.

Wow, you are the sensitive type.  Different coaches slide for different reasons.  Tell me why Bobby Bowden went from having a top 10 team, and winning his conf and NC's to a place where his biggest boosters and supporters asked for his resignation.   I'd say that in bobby's case, the game changed and he didn't put teh right assistants in place, or change them enough with the right guys, or he didn't let them do their jobs.  Not sure which one as I am not intimite with the program.

As for Bob Stoops, I don't follow that program closely, so I would not begin to speculate.  I like Bob Stoops (just like I like CJL).

In CJL's case, I think he hit a ceiling and could not break through it.  He had the talent on the team, but could not get the most out of it.  Maybe it was his motivational style, the same one that carried us this far, may have hurt him in the past few seasons.  But he did bump his head on the ceiling (yes, a bit of a pun) each of the past three seasons and could not get over the hump.  How do you beat an Auburn who beats UF at home, and still lose some winnable BE games.  Why were we one of the most penalized teams, where is the discipline?  There are many, many  reasons I think CJL could not get over the hump.  Not a slam on CJL, as I said, I still like him and think another up and coming program would benefit from him being their and developing their program.   But he clearly made mistakes.

Well, Socrates...I see you thought and thought for this response, but one thing you just don't add in to all pondering...bad luck.  You know, unforseen circumstances such as the senior QB going down for the season?  It seems that both Bob Stoops and Jim Leavitt experienced some bad luck last season when Matt Grothe went down and then the overall #1 NFL Draft Pick was out for the season at OU.  Do ya think, Socrates, those two things made a difference in both teams seasons?

So what's the EXCUSE for both seasons prior to that?

BTW, didn't BJ win the FSU game with an unbullievable performance after MG went down?  I'd say BJ did well given the circumstances.  Your assertion states that MG went down.  BJ was sub par to MG.  And we trailed off last season because of BJ.  

I say BS.  We had more weapons last year than many of the past years, yet the performance went down.  And isn't the HC responsible for ensuring we have a depth chart and recruiting players in all positions so we can fill in gaps in the event of injuries, which will happen every season?  He had 5 years to recruit that depth. Are you saying in 5 BE seasons we could not get more than one deep in critical positions.  Whose fault is that, the players?

[IncrediBULL]

Addendum for Socrates...

Since you are such and thoughtful and logical person, please tell me what you like about Holtz that makes you think he'll be a great coach?  Is it his bowl record or is it his overall record of 72-50?

Exactly what is it about Skip Holtz that has you so excited?

Where to start.  Hmm. If I picked one thing that brought Leavitt down, it was't his coaching or on field antics.  It was his biter battle with the media.  He was not a warm guy and alienated BM who made it his mission to take him, and the program down.  Holtz, the media loves.  And I mean loves.

I got calls from ECU supporters I know who were very sad we got Hotlz.  They word they used for him in their area was "beloved".  He will be a great ambassador for USF and the program.

We have had our share of off field antics with the kids over years.  Yes all programs have that, but it our past coaching did not deal with those situations.  Drugs, arrests, etc, were tolerated with slaps on the hand.  Holtz got rid of Ford in a matter of months, and look waht happened to Ford.  Yes, the battery was dropped, but still, it would have been yet another infraction from a person with bad judgment (MF).

The players are excited about getting a water break in the middle of practice.  A water break.   You can be tough, but also be compasionate at the same time.  I am not sure CJL figured out the second half of that.  I know he cared about the guys, but I have talked to parents of past players who said that he was a bit extreme (not in a good way). 

This is not really a CJL thing, but with a lower Holtz salary, and incentives, he was afforded a bigger assistant coaching budget so he coudl bring in big guns.  Guys who have won conf championships.  Guys who were part of NC teams.  Guys who know how to compete in BCS conferences.    Due to CJL Loyalty and an inability to make changes, and a lack of budget, CJL wasn't able to assemble the staff he needed to get the job done.  One of his biggest mistakes IMHO.

Remember, while you attack people, we did not choose for Leavitt to go.  His fate was decided last fall based on whatever happpened in that locker room.  That was a personal choice he made.  You should keep it in perspective.

Overall, I didn't want a change, but we were thrust into one.  I think Holtz is a breah of fresh air in a program that had reached a plateau.  I have met him, I like him, and his personality is infectious.  He seems to be warm and caring, a sharp contrast from the last administration.  He had little to work with at Uconn and ECU and turned both of them into a winner.

Also, you asked me to name what Holtz has done.  I'll tell you, took a not so great ECU team and won their conference in back to back years.  We have not even approached winning our conference, despite fooling the country into thinking we were #2 at one point during a season before dropping 3 games.  If you recruit in Florida, the 4th largest state in population, with arguably the 3rd or 4th best talent, and cannot get in the top 3 of the 5th ranked BCS conference, you are not achieving what you could.  He had 6 season to recruit under a "BCS" moniker.  Yet our results last season were actually worse than a few years prior. 

Now I am just rambling, but I do support Holtz going forward 1000%.  He will get us to the next level within a few seasons, though he was left with a shell to work with.

My only sadness in this whole thing is that when we build our on campus stadium, it won't be  named for Leavitt nor will it have a statue of him out front, as the father of USF football.  But again, I didn't choose that fate for him. 

Wow!  You really outdid yourself this time, Socrates.  That's a lot wordurbation you whipped up.

Let me summarize and shorten it for you...Skip Holtz is NJL.  Skip Holtz is Not Jim Leavit.  That's the summary of your long diatribe.  I asked you about what excited you about Skip Holtz and you went on a rant about Jim Leavitt.  I think that's pretty telling.

Okay, I'll shorten it for you since it is obvious that you have a hard time with detailed multi faceted concepts.  I am excited about Holtz because he is the right coach for USF now with what needs we have at this time and where we are in the maturation of our program.  He can take a program that is at a certain level, to the next level.  Maybe, Leavitt's skill, was building from scratch - which he did well.  But our program's needs have changed.