Hypothetical: 2009 Season Results

[IncrediBULL]

He gets a pass this year.  Should make us top 5 in BE next year 2011.  Look for us to be top 3 the following 2012.  And then top 2 competing for a title 2013.  He would need to win the BE by 2014 and have us in a BCS bowl game.  If we go 7 - 5 this year, expect one more win each year for the next 4 seasons.  The fans would be excited about that, and it would prove he was the right hire at the right time, to take the torch and run with it.

[Bull94]

Addendum for Socrates...

Since you are such and thoughtful and logical person, please tell me what you like about Holtz that makes you think he'll be a great coach?  Is it his bowl record or is it his overall record of 72-50?

Exactly what is it about Skip Holtz that has you so excited?

Where to start.  Hmm. If I picked one thing that brought Leavitt down, it was't his coaching or on field antics.  It was his biter battle with the media.  He was not a warm guy and alienated BM who made it his mission to take him, and the program down.  Holtz, the media loves.  And I mean loves.

I got calls from ECU supporters I know who were very sad we got Hotlz.  They word they used for him in their area was "beloved".  He will be a great ambassador for USF and the program.

We have had our share of off field antics with the kids over years.  Yes all programs have that, but it our past coaching did not deal with those situations.  Drugs, arrests, etc, were tolerated with slaps on the hand.  Holtz got rid of Ford in a matter of months, and look waht happened to Ford.  Yes, the battery was dropped, but still, it would have been yet another infraction from a person with bad judgment (MF).

The players are excited about getting a water break in the middle of practice.  A water break.   You can be tough, but also be compasionate at the same time.  I am not sure CJL figured out the second half of that.  I know he cared about the guys, but I have talked to parents of past players who said that he was a bit extreme (not in a good way). 

This is not really a CJL thing, but with a lower Holtz salary, and incentives, he was afforded a bigger assistant coaching budget so he coudl bring in big guns.  Guys who have won conf championships.  Guys who were part of NC teams.  Guys who know how to compete in BCS conferences.    Due to CJL Loyalty and an inability to make changes, and a lack of budget, CJL wasn't able to assemble the staff he needed to get the job done.  One of his biggest mistakes IMHO.

Remember, while you attack people, we did not choose for Leavitt to go.  His fate was decided last fall based on whatever happpened in that locker room.  That was a personal choice he made.  You should keep it in perspective.

Overall, I didn't want a change, but we were thrust into one.  I think Holtz is a breah of fresh air in a program that had reached a plateau.  I have met him, I like him, and his personality is infectious.  He seems to be warm and caring, a sharp contrast from the last administration.  He had little to work with at Uconn and ECU and turned both of them into a winner.

Also, you asked me to name what Holtz has done.  I'll tell you, took a not so great ECU team and won their conference in back to back years.  We have not even approached winning our conference, despite fooling the country into thinking we were #2 at one point during a season before dropping 3 games.  If you recruit in Florida, the 4th largest state in population, with arguably the 3rd or 4th best talent, and cannot get in the top 3 of the 5th ranked BCS conference, you are not achieving what you could.  He had 6 season to recruit under a "BCS" moniker.  Yet our results last season were actually worse than a few years prior. 

Now I am just rambling, but I do support Holtz going forward 1000%.  He will get us to the next level within a few seasons, though he was left with a shell to work with.

My only sadness in this whole thing is that when we build our on campus stadium, it won't be  named for Leavitt nor will it have a statue of him out front, as the father of USF football.  But again, I didn't choose that fate for him. 

Wow!  You really outdid yourself this time, Socrates.  That's a lot wordurbation you whipped up.

Let me summarize and shorten it for you...Skip Holtz is NJL.  Skip Holtz is Not Jim Leavit.  That's the summary of your long diatribe.  I asked you about what excited you about Skip Holtz and you went on a rant about Jim Leavitt.  I think that's pretty telling.

Okay, I'll shorten it for you since it is obvious that you have a hard time with detailed multi faceted concepts.  I am excited about Holtz because he is the right coach for USF now with what needs we have at this time and where we are in the maturation of our program.  He can take a program that is at a certain level, to the next level.  Maybe, Leavitt's skill, was building from scratch - which he did well.  But our program's needs have changed.

And again that begs the question...What is it about Holtz that leads you to make those assumptions?  His overall record?  His bowl record?  What?

Holtz won 2 conference titles in 5 years. that's after taking over a program that won 3 out of 23 games in the 2 years prior to his arrival.

Thanks.  You beat me to this post.  ALso look at his results at UCONN.  I think Holtz does a good job of surrounding himself with coaching talent.  That is what will separate him from our past.

Yep...Someone else had to do your thinking for you, Socrates.  Yes, Skip did a pretty good job in Conference USA so well see how he does at the next step up the ladder at USF before he moves on to the Big Time.

that's fine with me. if he moves onto the big time, it means he left us better off than he found us. Probably with a couple of conference titles and maybe a BCS bowl win.

I'm smart enough to realize USF is not a destination job and that's o.k.

Miami won 5 NC with 4 different coaches.

So you and Socrates expect, no demand that Skip Holtz win a Big East Title?  How long does he have to do that before he should be fired?

yes, I both expect and, as a booster, demand that he win a conference title within 5 years. That's why he is paid $1.7M a year. I hope that our administration is committed to winning. If he can't prove that he can win at this level within 5 years then I hope he is let go. I hope we don't make the mistake of over signing him.

I appreciate what Leavitt did but let's face it he was an average coach in a below average BCS conference. The results prove this to be the case.

There is no shame in that. Most of us are average at what we do including me. I hated to see him go out this way but he needed everything to fall perfectly in order for him to win a conference title here and that shouldn't be the case.

[cmhatter]

What a thoughtful person you are!

I'm going to have to call you Socrates because you think things through so much.

So...Socrates.  Please explain Bob Stoops' slide.  You know, he and Jim were co-defensive coordinators together at Kansas State.  Do you think it's a flaw in Bill Snyder's mentoring program?

PS...For someone that didn't want to reply to me you sure wrote out a lot of, well, masturbation.

crazy how different their career paths went....

So you agree taking the USF start up job was a mistake?

not at all

Now wait a minute.

You can't have it both ways.  If you want to talk about career paths then obviously it was a mistake for Leavitt to take the USF job.  Jim was the first to leave KSU to take the USF job.  Had he held out maybe he would have been the one former University of Missouri Athletic Director Joe Castiglione would have hired at Oklahoma instead of Stoops.

hypotheticals....

coulda woulda shoulda

[IncrediBULL]

How about this gem  "garbage in garbage out"  LOL

[Bull94]

He gets a pass this year.  Should make us top 5 in BE next year 2011.  Look for us to be top 3 the following 2012.  And then top 2 competing for a title 2013.  He would need to win the BE by 2014 and have us in a BCS bowl game.  If we go 7 - 5 this year, expect one more win each year for the next 4 seasons.  The fans would be excited about that, and it would prove he was the right hire at the right time, to take the torch and run with it.

A BCS Bowl Game??  Wow!

So why are you being so patient with Hotz, but not Leavitt?

Leavitt had 5 years.

you only need to win the BE in order to go to a BCS game.

[Bull94]

He gets a pass this year.  Should make us top 5 in BE next year 2011.  Look for us to be top 3 the following 2012.  And then top 2 competing for a title 2013.  He would need to win the BE by 2014 and have us in a BCS bowl game.  If we go 7 - 5 this year, expect one more win each year for the next 4 seasons.  The fans would be excited about that, and it would prove he was the right hire at the right time, to take the torch and run with it.

A BCS Bowl Game??  Wow!

So why are you being so patient with Hotz, but not Leavitt?

Leavitt had 5 years.

you only need to win the BE in order to go to a BCS game.

I guess it doesn't matter that the program did not exist only a few years before, huh?  I guess it does not matter the program was pushed to D-1 at warp speed, huh?

"No excuses because we are by gawd South Florida!"

In the real world of college football we call this kind of thinking "delusional." 

It doesn't matter. we will always be younger than every other BCS team in existence. we can always use that excuse.

UConn went D-1a at the same time. They have shared a BE title and Edsall has to recruit to a college football wasteland.

Leavitt recruited within 120 mile radius of the top 5 most fertile recruiting grounds in college football.

Cincy went 4-7 in 2005 with a loss to USF. USF went 6-5 that same year. Their facilities are worse than ours and they had absolutely no history.

Cincy went 12-0 and 11-2 the last 2 years. we were 7-5 and 7-5. who made progress and who stood still?

[IncrediBULL]

He gets a pass this year.  Should make us top 5 in BE next year 2011.  Look for us to be top 3 the following 2012.  And then top 2 competing for a title 2013.  He would need to win the BE by 2014 and have us in a BCS bowl game.  If we go 7 - 5 this year, expect one more win each year for the next 4 seasons.  The fans would be excited about that, and it would prove he was the right hire at the right time, to take the torch and run with it.

A BCS Bowl Game??  Wow!

So why are you being so patient with Hotz, but not Leavitt?

Patient?  Leavitt had 6 recruiting sessions and 5 years in the BE to develop a winning team.  We had a better season three years ago, than the past two.  We were sliding backwards, meanwhile Pitt, UConn, Rutgers, Cinci, all surged past us.  That, my friend, is nothing but coaching right there.

If Holtz can progress and build on each year for the next 5 seasons, that would put us in a position to win the BE.  5 years is fine as long as there is progress.  Being in neutral wasn't working.  Sliding backwards wasn't working either.  Leavitt hit the ceiling of what he could accomplish, for whatever reason.  He was at teh helm, he got the praise when things were going well, and as the leader he gets the pain when things are going bad.  Goes with the job.

[IncrediBULL]

What a thoughtful person you are!

I'm going to have to call you Socrates because you think things through so much.

So...Socrates.  Please explain Bob Stoops' slide.  You know, he and Jim were co-defensive coordinators together at Kansas State.  Do you think it's a flaw in Bill Snyder's mentoring program?

PS...For someone that didn't want to reply to me you sure wrote out a lot of, well, masturbation.

crazy how different their career paths went....

So you agree taking the USF start up job was a mistake?

not at all

Now wait a minute.

You can't have it both ways.  If you want to talk about career paths then obviously it was a mistake for Leavitt to take the USF job.  Jim was the first to leave KSU to take the USF job.  Had he held out maybe he would have been the one former University of Missouri Athletic Director Joe Castiglione would have hired at Oklahoma instead of Stoops.

hypotheticals....

coulda woulda shoulda

No, no, Young hatter, we are talking about career paths, so focus on that and not attempt to diffuse and deflect.  Leavitt took the career path to be the first to leave the KSU coaching staff to accept the job at USF.  Bob Stoops held back, left to be the DC at Florida in '96 and then to OU in '99.

So again I ask, was Leavitt's career path to USF a mistake?

Since you are comparing to Stoops, I have an idea.  Lets get Stoops and Leavitt together for a beer, and ask them who has had the better career path.  Stoops is making like 4 M, his team is projected to be top 10 or 11. Leavitt, not so much. 

[IncrediBULL]

He gets a pass this year.  Should make us top 5 in BE next year 2011.  Look for us to be top 3 the following 2012.  And then top 2 competing for a title 2013.  He would need to win the BE by 2014 and have us in a BCS bowl game.  If we go 7 - 5 this year, expect one more win each year for the next 4 seasons.  The fans would be excited about that, and it would prove he was the right hire at the right time, to take the torch and run with it.

A BCS Bowl Game??  Wow!

So why are you being so patient with Hotz, but not Leavitt?

Leavitt had 5 years.

you only need to win the BE in order to go to a BCS game.

I guess it doesn't matter that the program did not exist only a few years before, huh?  I guess it does not matter the program was pushed to D-1 at warp speed, huh?

"No excuses because we are by gawd South Florida!"

In the real world of college football we call this kind of thinking "delusional." 

Excuses?  You are full of them.  The program is 13 yeas old.  But we were in a BCS conf for 5 seasons, 6 recruiting terms.  The past three years we slid backwards under our coaching staff.  The push to D1 was remarkable, no one is disputing that.  But the slide the past three years is not acceptable to fans.  Our donations have gone up.  Our ticket prices have gone up.  Leavitt's salary went up.  But the results went down. 

Head coaches are expected to produce results.  Levitt was the second highest paid coach in the BE, and 3rd from the bottom in performance.  "In the real world of college football, that is what we call, time for a change".  Happens all over the country at many different schools each and every year.  Ask Notre Dame.

[IncrediBULL]

He gets a pass this year.  Should make us top 5 in BE next year 2011.  Look for us to be top 3 the following 2012.  And then top 2 competing for a title 2013.  He would need to win the BE by 2014 and have us in a BCS bowl game.  If we go 7 - 5 this year, expect one more win each year for the next 4 seasons.  The fans would be excited about that, and it would prove he was the right hire at the right time, to take the torch and run with it.

A BCS Bowl Game??  Wow!

So why are you being so patient with Hotz, but not Leavitt?

Leavitt had 5 years.

you only need to win the BE in order to go to a BCS game.

I guess it doesn't matter that the program did not exist only a few years before, huh?  I guess it does not matter the program was pushed to D-1 at warp speed, huh?

"No excuses because we are by gawd South Florida!"

In the real world of college football we call this kind of thinking "delusional." 

It doesn't matter. we will always be younger than every other BCS team in existence. we can always use that excuse.

UConn went D-1a at the same time. They have shared a BE title and Edsall has to recruit to a college football wasteland.

Leavitt recruited within 120 mile radius of the top 5 most fertile recruiting grounds in college football.

Cincy went 4-7 in 2005 with a loss to USF. USF went 6-5 that same year. Their facilities are worse than ours and they had absolutely no history.

Cincy went 12-0 and 11-2 the last 2 years. we were 7-5 and 7-5. who made progress and who stood still?

Agreed. 

Which is why Brian Kelly has gotten one of the most desireable coaching positions in the country, from one of the most storied programs, making a ton of money.  HE PRODUCED RESULTS.   

People want winners and are willing to pay for it.  Have you noticed that during the coaching searches the past two years, Leavitt's name was no longer thrown around in the press and on coaching searches for the big jobs?  That is because no one would give a coach with mediocre results a job at say $3 or $4M.  They would be of their rocker to do so.

Last year, we ended as a below average team, in second to last weakest BCS conference.  With a rough national ranking in the 50's.  Not exactly anything to cheer about.