Calling for JL's head?-Your Thoughts??

[Goldenbuc]

Lose a couple of games and the coach should get fired?  If that was the tolerance...USF would never get anyone to coach for them.

CJL deserves to stay through 2005...then see.

[BULLheaded]

Lose a couple of games and the coach should get fired?  If that was the tolerance...USF would never get anyone to coach for them.

CJL deserves to stay through 2005...then see.

NOBODY is calling for him to get fired. Where does this come from? Yes, there was a post with the fireleavitt.com but if anyone read the post it wasn't calling for his head but just bringing up the discussion of what people here thought...and (aside from bullonly) the concensous was a huge Leavitt should NOT be fired. Doesn't anybody actually read these posts?

[Bullpride08]

bien, my opinion agrees with yours that demanding Leavitt's head is an over reaction...however you obviously haven't noticed just about every person on this board has said the same thing. On the other hand asking for the head of several offensive coaches is NOT an over reaction. The offense did not lose this game but it has been a consistent problem for years and calling them out is not merely a reaction to this game nor is it something new and that goes for comments I've heard from you as well. You made a great point in another thread about how the running game has improved with the addition of Franks and how he has turned Crossley's techniques completely around to the point that he is playing at a much higher level then in the past.  This is exactly what I was talking about in my posts above and why I am questioning the current offensive coaches ability to teach these athletes the techniques necessary to play at the level we are now playing in instead of the level we played in the past. IMO if we upgrade the other coaches to the level of a Franks we would see the same types of improvements in the other positions as we have in the running game.

Now, what pisses ME off is every time you disagree with a poster you must proclaim them ignorant of knowing anything about football and many times must also call them a-holes or other such comments. Hey I got news for you, I have read many many posts that you have disagreed with that were well thought out, logical and obviously written by people who know something about this sport even if you don't believe so. I'm sorry if you can't stand to hear anything negative about this team but sometimes the truth just plain old hurts and right now the truth is we are playing like crap and youth isn't the only problem by a long shot. I don't like to hear it or say it but reality is reality.

Bullheaded,

I have no problem with anything negative about this team.  I live a life, I have a wonderful family, good job, mine doesn't revolve around the Bulls winning as to whether I'll have a good or bad year.  Which is why if people are going to be openly critical then they owe it to themselves and members of the board to be intelligent about their responses.  Fine be critical, but don't be stupid about it, and you're wrong there is more than one or two that are making knee-jerked ignorant responses.  There's actually a couple of dozen, and when UCF fans are forced to be the voice of reason for USF fans then some of us have a problem.

I don't call everyone out when they disagree with me, I only call ignorance when I see ignorance.  Ignorance is like comments such as; 'FIRE HOBBIE TODAY', 'www.firejimleavitt.com', 'stupid play calling', 'bad coaches', etc.

I do believe we could improve on Hobbie, but we also need to recognize the REAL problem with this team and not hide behind some battle cry of "Fire So-and-So," because I don't think we played well.   I was never on Hobbie's bandwagon, but I must admit, and everyone must admit, his play calling has improved this year, and there's been some tangible improvement in general operations of the offense.  Also, when he has a QB connecting you see what our offense is capable of, for instance TCU- we really made a ton of mistakes but still racked up 560 total yards!

Again, I am not saying Hobbie should stay, or that he should be summarily fired, but some people must recognize that right now it has zero to do with Hobbie the reasons were losing.  If our offense continues to improve throughout this year are people still going to demand Hobbie's head because they don't know any better than to find the real culprits for our lack of execution?  What if PJ has one of his good games, and we run up 500 yards of total offense on UL, this is a distinct possibility since our offense's problem is stopping itself, but we lose by 3.  Do we continue to demand Hobbie's resignation?  

That's my point, if you're going to criticize Hobbie when he's down, and demand his firing, then you need to give him kudos when he comes off and runs a sound offense.  To me, right now, the only coaches that clearly need to be fired are Smith and Frey.  I like Greg, but this is the second year in a row the OL has not played consistently, and he's not getting them to respond properly.  He's got the most senior and cohesive unit on the team so his excuses are moot- over half our offensive penalties have come from this unit this year!!!!!   That's not acceptable, the kids can take the blame, but when they're that experienced and decently talented it must fall back to the OL coach.  As for Smith, I just don't like the way he handles the QB, he's screaming at PJ on the sideline, he gets too huffy on the sidelines, and honestly he's had PJ for three years in this system, and the hitches PJ has are high school caliber stuff- throwing off the back foot, improper release timing, holding the ball wrong.  

If someone was watching over you at work, you would expect that if you had something go wrong, or had a bad month or season, they would give you at least a fighting chance to improve, and get better.

To me the problems are glaring.  They stare us in the face that it shouldn't be a big finger pointing campaign except at the athletes on the field.   They need to make plays, Camon can be better but at his size perfect technique is required on every play, ditto for Verpaele, and our LB's.  It's obvious our DL isn't going to dominate anyone this year so our backers need to improve and make plays- because of the size that comes from perfect technique, using their speed to fend off blockers.  Until that happens it could get ugly it could go well it all depends on how our athletes respond.  

[bulls96go]

Leavitt has done a great job with this program and we can attribute our success to him. I am disappointed though that after the offensive debacle last year that he didn't make the hard decision to go after a better quality OC....and probably several offensive coaches need upgrading. To give him the benefit of the doubt maybe the cash necessary to bring in better coaching wasn't there. I think it is obvious that the coaching staff is letting these kids down, I mean we have the talent but are the coaches able to hone these talents and give them the tools they need to become successful on the field? I keep hearing......it's not the coaches that make the plays but it IS the coaching that is suppose to prepare these kids and after two years (I might argue that it is even longer back but MB masked alot of it) of this type of offensive problems I think it is a valid question to ask if the coaches are out of there league. I also don't think it is only the addition of Hall that is making our running game better but that we have a true 1-A quality coach at that position. And the offensive plays.....geeesh, they are about the quality as kids playing in a park sketching them in the huddle with a stick in the dirt. Has Hobbie ever even heard of play action or bootlegs? just plain aweful!

So  as an answer, no it isn't time to call for Leavitt's head but it is time to call for him to make the hard choices necessary and upgrade those around him and if he is unable to do that then I don't see how he will be able to progress.

well said

nothing needs to be added

even smazza and bullonly should agree on this

[BULLheaded]

I have no problem with anything negative about this team.  I live a life, I have a wonderful family, good job, mine doesn't revolve around the Bulls winning as to whether I'll have a good or bad year.  Which is why if people are going to be openly critical then they owe it to themselves and members of the board to be intelligent about their responses.  Fine be critical, but don't be stupid about it, and you're wrong there is more than one or two that are making knee-jerked ignorant responses.  There's actually a couple of dozen, and when UCF fans are forced to be the voice of reason for USF fans then some of us have a problem.

let me re-iterate what I said, nobody is specifically calling for Jim Leavitt's head other then bullonly that I can tell and we have been hearing this from him forever. Has there been some calling for other coaches heads? Yes, and I think alot of it is justified...do I think that it could or should be done mid-season? Well that's just unrealistic and I'm sure commented on in an exaggerated manner in order to make a point on how strong people feel.

I don't call everyone out when they disagree with me, I only call ignorance when I see ignorance.  Ignorance is like comments such as; 'FIRE HOBBIE TODAY','www.firejimleavitt.com', 'stupid play calling', 'bad coaches', etc.

Problem is the way you call them out and many of those posts you are referencing were just "shock" titles but if you read the posts they were either just starting a discussion or pretty well thought out. Not saying I or others or even you are always right in our opinions but regardless many of us aren't idiots about the sport even if very critical.

I do believe we could improve on Hobbie, but we also need to recognize the REAL problem with this team and not hide behind some battle cry of "Fire So-and-So," because I don't think we played well.   I was never on Hobbie's bandwagon, but I must admit, and everyone must admit, his play calling has improved this year, and there's been some tangible improvement in general operations of the offense.  Also, when he has a QB connecting you see what our offense is capable of, for instance TCU- we really made a ton of mistakes but still racked up 560 total yards!

Again, I am not saying Hobbie should stay, or that he should be summarily fired, but some people must recognize that right now it has zero to do with Hobbie the reasons were losing.  If our offense continues to improve throughout this year are people still going to demand Hobbie's head because they don't know any better than to find the real culprits for our lack of execution?  What if PJ has one of his good games, and we run up 500 yards of total offense on UL, this is a distinct possibility since our offense's problem is stopping itself, but we lose by 3.  Do we continue to demand Hobbie's resignation?  

I will admit that Hobbie has improved in his play calling this year, there are several areas I feel he has done better this year but better isn't necessarily where we need to be. I'll ask you the question I ask to myself. Do you think Hobbie and the assistants are good enough to put together a team that can compete as a national championship contender or even as a top 10 program? If the answer is no then we should be upgrading assuming this is the teams goal.

That's my point, if you're going to criticize Hobbie when he's down, and demand his firing, then you need to give him kudos when he comes off and runs a sound offense.  To me, right now, the only coaches that clearly need to be fired are Smith and Frey.  I like Greg, but this is the second year in a row the OL has not played consistently, and he's not getting them to respond properly.  He's got the most senior and cohesive unit on the team so his excuses are moot- over half our offensive penalties have come from this unit this year!!!!!   That's not acceptable, the kids can take the blame, but when they're that experienced and decently talented it must fall back to the OL coach.  As for Smith, I just don't like the way he handles the QB, he's screaming at PJ on the sideline, he gets too huffy on the sidelines, and honestly he's had PJ for three years in this system, and the hitches PJ has are high school caliber stuff- throwing off the back foot, improper release timing, holding the ball wrong.

Again I'll admit he is improved but not sure I'll go as far as to say he has been perfectly sound since what I really see is the improvement in our running and would attribute that to Franks not Hobbie. This is obviously heresay but I also suspect a strong influence from Franks on play calling. But whether that is true or not, getting back to my question above, my answer to that is that he would not last two seconds at one of the big programs so why should we settle? Maybe if we replaced all of his assistants he would be far better but I'll ask you...you have seen his system for several years now, do you think that system can propel us to the top? I agree completely on the two coaches you mention as well, for all the talk about our OL they have appeared very shaky at best to me and the QBs...well that's pretty obvious.

If someone was watching over you at work, you would expect that if you had something go wrong, or had a bad month or season, they would give you at least a fighting chance to improve, and get better.  

Here is how I feel about that, obviously I would expect to be given time to improve BUT what if I'm being asked to work as a programmer but have only been given basic computing knowledge? The limited time I would have with the firm would not be enough for me to improve to the level I need to be at. My concern is that our coaches are teaching computers 101 when it is advanced programming is needed to succeed. It was quite obvious that Ross was teaching his outclassed and slow athletes advanced knowledge that they are using to play above their heads, can our offensive coaches do this at the top level of play? Again if the answer is no then the next step should be a given.

To me the problems are glaring.  They stare us in the face that it shouldn't be a big finger pointing campaign except at the athletes on the field.   They need to make plays, Camon can be better but at his size perfect technique is required on every play, ditto for Verpaele, and our LB's.  It's obvious our DL isn't going to dominate anyone this year so our backers need to improve and make plays- because of the size that comes from perfect technique, using their speed to fend off blockers.  Until that happens it could get ugly it could go well it all depends on how our athletes respond.

I am not too concerned over the defence, we are young and I think most expected us to struggle (maybe not quite this much but still isn't a complete shock) Also, unlike the offense, the defense has not just been decent but consistently awesome. I would also answer my question above and say not only can this group build a championship calibur defense but I think we have come pretty close to having one the last 2 years.

[S p e n c e]

SBien, You say that the problem is "talent related" How are the specific points I listed in my post anywere NEAR talent related?

 I cannot believe you go about calling posters who are questioning the coaching staff "idiots" and then don't even comment on any of the points in my post.

I listed a number of specific problems that I can see, and if I am wrong (and maybe I am) try to correct me, rather than circumventing the entire post and just giving a blanket statement that we are all "idiots".

I will actually issue you a challenge...I want you to explain to me how CJL is deserving of staying here as head coach, think of it as a debate, you have to convince me with actual facts.  

And recent history only, you cannot use the argument that he has "done so much for the program".  Or "he got us to the Big East".  No one is arguing the accomplishments.  

I am talking about his performance as a COACH, and his decision making, and coaching STRATEGY over the past 2 years.  Once again, not on his past accomplishments, not on missed catches, or fumbles and such which he has no control over, on the subjects I listed in my post on page 2.  

This is my challenge, should you decide to accept it the tape will self-destruct in 5 seconds....tick tick tick

[S p e n c e]

No takers?

[S p e n c e]

Still no takers?  

Yet members still continue to rip on anyone who posts criticism of CJL and the coaching staff in other threads.  I don't get it.  I am not trying to be a hard@55 here, but I think its ridiculous that I put a challenge out there for someone to try to explain this issue to me, and instead of taking me up on it, they go to other topics and get on other posters cases.  C'mon!  Give me an explanation or get off the backs of those who are getting tired of the mistakes made my this coaching staff.

[CyberBull]

Why?

Because w/o Leavitt's hardwork our future conference opponents  would be SMU, Rice and Tulsa.

Why?

Because the man deserves our loyalty.

Why?

Because he recruited out of a **** trailer for 7 years and got this program into the BCS?

Why?

Because he is not Doug Graber, Ernest Givens and the other assorted hasbeens or never were that applied for this job.

Why?

Because all the supposed coaching mistakes are in your head? We lost 4 games last year and stole a couple of games lesser coaches would of let get away.

Why?

Because the Army game was the first game we should of won that we lost.

Why?

Because he has put two together straight top notch recruiting classes and is assembling yet again the best ever class for 2005.

Why?

Because he is not Steve Spurrier.  Why SOS? Based on the little patience given to Leavitt why would you ever consider wanting to bring in SOS? Afterall, he "only" won one national championship game despite having Top 10 recruiting classes year after year. Then again, despite the mythical recruiting championships, SOS hates/hated recruiting. How many big games did his constant QB switching cost the Gators?

Why?

If some of you football geniuses are so eager to get rid of the founder of this program after 5 bad games, how much time do you give the next poor sap who gets this job? Do you fire him after his first game?

I don't think I have ever been more embarrassed to be a Bulls fan. Not due to the action on the field but by the behavior of some our "fans" who seem to have forgotten that we were playing Kentucky Wesylan just 8 years ago.

If you don't know what I am talking about, go to TBO.com.

Thanks for "representing" and nice job.

>

[S p e n c e]

I am talking about his performance as a COACH, and his decision making, and coaching STRATEGY over the past 2 years.  Once again, not on his past accomplishments, not on missed catches, or fumbles and such which he has no control over, on the subjects I listed in my post on page 2.  

Apparently you overlooked this entire paragraph because none of your points once referred to his in game decision making, and his coaching strategy (which includes game preparation which also seems to be lacking) or any of the specific points in which I listed.  On the contrary they all referred to his past accomplishments, which I clearly said I was not referring to.

Ohh wait, I was wrong you did say all the coaching mistakes were "in my head".  Hmmmmm, Okaaay.  

Obviously he has built a terrific program here, but the entire point of this thread was...

" Just a thought and a question?  There comes a time when a coach plateaus out.............maybe he has brought the program to the furthest pt he could and its time for someone new to take us to the next level"

That was the original question that was posed.  My point was that I believe that maybe he has reached his potential, and your view is that he has not.  But in trying to defend your view you cannot use past accomplishments to justify a coach staying if questions are being raised that he is not up for the job, you have to defend what the coach is doing NOW, because what he is doing NOW is why the questions are being raised.  And there has still yet to be a good explanation against the arguement that he has reached his potetial because of the fact that everyone keeps bringing up the past, and not the present.

Ohh and step down off your pedestal you put yourself on, with that sarcastic remark about me "representing" USF.  Just because I have a differant view than you doesnt mean you are any more of a fan or any more loyal than I am.  I am not doing that to anyone, I am just simply asking for an explanation.