The Grothe Effect

[Orlando Bull]

Wow am I a bad parent.  I just hope my kids graduate "someday", have lots of fun and don't get arrested for any felonies.  Life to tough and college should be fun and learning.  Does anyone go to their doctor or CPA and ask them what their GPA was ?  Time to really perform is after you get out.

As both CPA and DR require acceptance to med school based on college grades, and college entrance is based on SAT and GPA in HS, It is doubtful your CPA or Dr. had low GPA's....     Yes, there could be a few exceptions, but probably not many...

My nephew just compled UF (had a 4.xx gpa to get in) and then Boston College for his Accounting Grad program (it is a 5 year or graduate program now) and passed his CPA exams first time.   He certainly is in the top 10% of students....   

Point being, it would be a waste of time to ask your Dr or CPA what their undergrad and hs grade were, because a decent grad school would not have accepted them....

Doctors yes, I am pretty sure you don't need a grad degree to get a CPA license in Florida, I could be wrong though, but a couple of friends of mine graduated with accounting degrees and I am pretty sure they are CPAs with no masters.

I'm an engineer, and from what I have seen, people with really high GPAs generally got there because that was what was important to them. Some seem to have a hard time transitioning into actual work. It is important for your first job, but after that, you will live life based on reputation and being good at what you do, not because you had better grades than the next guy/gal. No masters needed to get Professional Engineering license either.

I agree though, you better have very nearly a 4.0 in a pre-med program to get into medical school.

[IncrediBULL]

Wow am I a bad parent.  I just hope my kids graduate "someday", have lots of fun and don't get arrested for any felonies.  Life to tough and college should be fun and learning.  Does anyone go to their doctor or CPA and ask them what their GPA was ?  Time to really perform is after you get out.

As both CPA and DR require acceptance to med school based on college grades, and college entrance is based on SAT and GPA in HS, It is doubtful your CPA or Dr. had low GPA's....     Yes, there could be a few exceptions, but probably not many...

My nephew just compled UF (had a 4.xx gpa to get in) and then Boston College for his Accounting Grad program (it is a 5 year or graduate program now) and passed his CPA exams first time.   He certainly is in the top 10% of students....   

Point being, it would be a waste of time to ask your Dr or CPA what their undergrad and hs grade were, because a decent grad school would not have accepted them....

Doctors yes, I am pretty sure you don't need a grad degree to get a CPA license in Florida, I could be wrong though, but a couple of friends of mine graduated with accounting degrees and I am pretty sure they are CPAs with no masters.

I'm an engineer, and from what I have seen, people with really high GPAs generally got there because that was what was important to them. Some seem to have a hard time transitioning into actual work. It is important for your first job, but after that, you will live life based on reputation and being good at what you do, not because you had better grades than the next guy/gal. No masters needed to get Professional Engineering license either.

I agree though, you better have very nearly a 4.0 in a pre-med program to get into medical school.

CPA now requires a 5th year accounting degree /or/ an accounting graduate degree, plus passing the cpa exam.    the 4 year accounting degree prohibits you from being a cpa.  BTW, USF has one of the highest cpa passing rates in the country and are usually in the  top 5 nationally.

It has required the CPA exam forever, and that is a difficult exam with a fairly high failure rate. 

The only CPA's without masters or 5th year acct degrees are those who completed more than 15 or so years ago, when they instituted the rule. 

[af_bull05]

...but if I had children right now (which I don't) I'd want them to aspire to a better school than USF. This may change as time goes by if USF continues to excel academically, but that's just my opinion right now.

I was there with you and felt the same way... But I think you would've seen the same at other state schools. I recently finished grad school (not at USF) and thought the same thing on the first day of class... and my school was/is fairly competitive as far as admissions.

I think it is understandable you'd want the best for your kids... I wouldn't mind if mine went to MIT.

I'm glad to see USF improving their academic standards and I think they'll keep getting better.  I went to USF from 2000-2005 and got a bachelor's in electrical engineering.  There were definitely some dumb people at USF, but there were also some really smart people in my classes. 

Now I'm one class away from my master's in industrial engineering from New Mexico State and I would say the quality of education is similar with USF being a little better (plus my major was harder at USF).  I've taken grad classes at NMSU in both engineering and business, and some people in my classes, especially the business types (you know who I'm talking about), have been dumb as hell. 

Overall, I'd say USF is probably on par with most state schools.

[TRUTH D. Antagonist]

How much has high school Algebra, English Comp, or American History I changed in the last 40 years? Seriously... With technology today, it's reduced the role of the teacher even more.

i can't speak for English or Algebra, but as a History major [and substitute teacher] i can say that History itself hasn't changed, but the theories, perspectives and methods of teaching it certainly have.

where at one time u had nothing but the empirical method of teaching the raw names and dates, now u have ethnohistory, gender perspectives, post-modernist history, etc.

and your "technology reduces the role of the teacher" is counter-intuitive, because teachers themselves have to learn that technology and then teach their students how to use that technology themselves... more technology doesn't necessarily mean decreased teacher work-load.

also consider the fact that half of teaching is not merely sitting a kid down at a computer and telling them to Google search something, but teaching them how to distinguish a good source from a bad source and how to find them, then how to critically compare and contrast the information, cite it, organize it, etc.

then, of course, as somebody already mentioned--- the biggest stress of teaching is not even the subject matter itself, but the babysitting aspect of having to watch over 100-150 different kids [depending on # of classes and class-sizes], many of whom have their own issues at home and their own behavioral or even psychiatric issues that makes the job increasingly complicated.

teachers aren't just paid to teach curriculum, they are also expected to be babysitters, social workers, psychiatrists, sociologists and cultural anthropologists for their students.  the problem with $35k a year for teachers is that u get what u pay for and there is only so much u can expect from someone that makes the equivalent of a McDonald's shift manager with a high school diploma.

[Orlando Bull]

Wow am I a bad parent.  I just hope my kids graduate "someday", have lots of fun and don't get arrested for any felonies.  Life to tough and college should be fun and learning.  Does anyone go to their doctor or CPA and ask them what their GPA was ?  Time to really perform is after you get out.

As both CPA and DR require acceptance to med school based on college grades, and college entrance is based on SAT and GPA in HS, It is doubtful your CPA or Dr. had low GPA's....     Yes, there could be a few exceptions, but probably not many...

My nephew just compled UF (had a 4.xx gpa to get in) and then Boston College for his Accounting Grad program (it is a 5 year or graduate program now) and passed his CPA exams first time.   He certainly is in the top 10% of students....   

Point being, it would be a waste of time to ask your Dr or CPA what their undergrad and hs grade were, because a decent grad school would not have accepted them....

Doctors yes, I am pretty sure you don't need a grad degree to get a CPA license in Florida, I could be wrong though, but a couple of friends of mine graduated with accounting degrees and I am pretty sure they are CPAs with no masters.

I'm an engineer, and from what I have seen, people with really high GPAs generally got there because that was what was important to them. Some seem to have a hard time transitioning into actual work. It is important for your first job, but after that, you will live life based on reputation and being good at what you do, not because you had better grades than the next guy/gal. No masters needed to get Professional Engineering license either.

I agree though, you better have very nearly a 4.0 in a pre-med program to get into medical school.

CPA now requires a 5th year accounting degree /or/ an accounting graduate degree, plus passing the cpa exam.    the 4 year accounting degree prohibits you from being a cpa.  BTW, USF has one of the highest cpa passing rates in the country and are usually in the  top 5 nationally.

It has required the CPA exam forever, and that is a difficult exam with a fairly high failure rate. 

The only CPA's without masters or 5th year acct degrees are those who completed more than 15 or so years ago, when they instituted the rule.   

10-4 I think the one of my friends in FL that has her CPA did do 5 years, I wasn't aware that it was part of the program though as she played a sport and that is normal. The other on is in Illinois, so things may be different, or she may have taken some classes there.

The CPA exam is supposed to be really tough, from what I have heard, tougher than the BAR. PE exam is no cake walk, but I think overall, USF ranks pretty well in that one too, and like you said, I have heard the same things about the passing rates of people with degrees from USF.

[CousinRicky]

I find it hard justifying paying teachers more. They receive three months off during the summer... they work 10-12 hours a day tops during the week (that includes taking work home). Depending on the course work they are instructing, change is truly limited. How much has high school Algebra, English Comp, or American History I changed in the last 40 years? Seriously... With technology today, it's reduced the role of the teacher even more.

Sorry if I offended you Cousin Ricky... I do enjoy reading your posts. My brother and his wife are teachers (and just like you had hoped your daughter might pursue actuarial science, I wish my brother had used his political science degree for something other than teaching history). FWIW... I wanted to become an actuary... but the language barrier in Calc I and II with my Russian math professor at USF and then a Chinese professor chased me to Finance.

I really don't want to get into this, but.....  Let's see, for 2 weeks during the "3 months off" she was at classes or at her school.  BTW, that 3 months started the 2nd week of June and began about the 1st week of August - not quite 3 months.  The teacher's contract here in Pasco was supposed to give her a HUGE $300/year increase.  Wait, the voters in FL decided they don't need/want to pay taxes and that was NOT supposed to affect the school tax.  Hold on a minute, it DID affect the schools.  Whoops, can't give the teacher's that big raise this year.  Your kids want supplies in school.  They can't afford them. So the teacher is nice enough (sometimes with their parents help) to have extras around.

Look, this was her choice.  I know that so please don't throw that back at me.  She knew getting into this that the salary suc$%d.  But if you think teachers aren't underpaid, why the heck do you think they have a hard time attracting/keeping good teachers?  They go through 300 teachers a year in this county.  That is not just from retirements.  She went through the same Calc 1 and 2 profs you did that she could barely understand and then Bridge to Abstract Math, Abstract Math and God knows what else. 

Second day of school this year a kid acts up.  She gives the kid some form that needs to be filled out.  He balls it up and throws it into the trash.  Hands him another one - same result.  But don't touch him and you can't send him to the Vice Prin office until you go through all the "proper" forms/actions that need to be taken. 

BTW, Algebra and math haven't changed any.  But how does that help a 7th grader that doesn't know it?  You still need someone to get it through to them.  I guess physics hasn't changed much so I should be able to go out and build me some big a$$ H-bomb or something.

They love her at her school.  She was voted Rookie of the Year last year.  She volunteers for everything and takes a real interest in each of her students.  But you want that $300 raise we promised you?  Sorry.  Oh, BTW, can you help out with the Student of the Month program?  It won't take too much extra time that we won't be paying you for. 

Yes, she has a job when many people don't.  She even gets some health benefits.  Again, just trying to point out that they are underpaid.  I lobbied friends to vote against the Property Tax reduction.  We are lucky enough to be retired.  So why the heck should I pay taxes so kids get educated?  Thinking like that is why Florida's schools aren't in such great shape. 

Sorry for the rant.

[Drewski]

Wow am I a bad parent.  I just hope my kids graduate "someday", have lots of fun and don't get arrested for any felonies.  Life to tough and college should be fun and learning.  Does anyone go to their doctor or CPA and ask them what their GPA was ?  Time to really perform is after you get out.

As both CPA and DR require acceptance to med school based on college grades, and college entrance is based on SAT and GPA in HS, It is doubtful your CPA or Dr. had low GPA's....     Yes, there could be a few exceptions, but probably not many...

My nephew just compled UF (had a 4.xx gpa to get in) and then Boston College for his Accounting Grad program (it is a 5 year or graduate program now) and passed his CPA exams first time.   He certainly is in the top 10% of students....   

Point being, it would be a waste of time to ask your Dr or CPA what their undergrad and hs grade were, because a decent grad school would not have accepted them....

Doctors yes, I am pretty sure you don't need a grad degree to get a CPA license in Florida, I could be wrong though, but a couple of friends of mine graduated with accounting degrees and I am pretty sure they are CPAs with no masters.

I'm an engineer, and from what I have seen, people with really high GPAs generally got there because that was what was important to them. Some seem to have a hard time transitioning into actual work. It is important for your first job, but after that, you will live life based on reputation and being good at what you do, not because you had better grades than the next guy/gal. No masters needed to get Professional Engineering license either.

I agree though, you better have very nearly a 4.0 in a pre-med program to get into medical school.

CPA now requires a 5th year accounting degree /or/ an accounting graduate degree, plus passing the cpa exam.    the 4 year accounting degree prohibits you from being a cpa.  BTW, USF has one of the highest cpa passing rates in the country and are usually in the  top 5 nationally.

It has required the CPA exam forever, and that is a difficult exam with a fairly high failure rate. 

The only CPA's without masters or 5th year acct degrees are those who completed more than 15 or so years ago, when they instituted the rule.   

10-4 I think the one of my friends in FL that has her CPA did do 5 years, I wasn't aware that it was part of the program though as she played a sport and that is normal. The other on is in Illinois, so things may be different, or she may have taken some classes there.

The CPA exam is supposed to be really tough, from what I have heard, tougher than the BAR. PE exam is no cake walk, but I think overall, USF ranks pretty well in that one too, and like you said, I have heard the same things about the passing rates of people with degrees from USF.

I'm not exactly sure about the rules in Illinois, but different states do have different CPA eligibility requirements, although you do see more states moving towards the 5th year requirement. As IncrediBull already indicated, Florida is one of those states with tougher requirements. 

[IncrediBULL]

IMHO Teachers and Police, two of the noblist of professions, are the most seriously underpaid in our state.

Both give up a lot for the "job" and have to be dedicated to the "job".  And they have to either help educate ALL people or deal with them on the back end. 

If we focused on improving education, and paid teachers a little more to keep the best of them, then we might need less poilice on the back end. 

And don't get me started on police.  Every day, even a routine traffic stop, could be their last moment on earth.  Seems like a lot to give up for 35-50k a year.

On the teaching side, salaries do need to rise a bit.  but their holiday and summer vacation is a plus.  Not to mention state insurance and retirement plans (both of which are immensely better than the private sector).  It is the perfect job for a woman who also wishes to have kids as the hours are conducive to such, and it provides some great benefits, with a reasonable level of pay (though not incredibly high).  Makes for a great second income to a family and I know quite a few teachers who would agree to it. 

Then again, doesn't everyone want a pay raise - I know I always do....

[Mama_Bull]

Lots of interesting posts in this thread, but NONE of them related to whether having a football team has led to the upsurge as was envisioned by USF:

"In a January 2003 New York Times Magazine cover story called "Football Is a Sucker's Game," writer Michael Sokolove said that officials at the University of South Florida were building a major football program in the hope that "the kind of magic" ascribed to "the Flutie effect" would then strike the Tampa campus."

I seriously doubt whether US News & World Report would be listing USF as one of the Top 20 up and coming universities without football. That ranking is based on a questionaire sent to universities across the country. I think it's football that probably got the attention of other schools more than anything else rather than our GPA or SAT scores.  ;D

Certainly, being in the Big East has raised our profile in a significant way and has increased our ability to recruit students as well as athletes and that has allowed us to become more selective. 

[IncrediBULL]

No empirical data to compare, but I think when you are in the paper every few days (tribune/times) and in tne national headlines (ie AP polls, USA Today, ESPN), and on national tv (ESPN, ABC, etc) then there is a good chance people will notice you.  I am sure that influences lots of kids. 

I remember being in high school and being a UF Gator fan, well before my brother went there, because my friend was a gator fan and his dad went to UF.  He used to watch/listen to all the games, so I became a fan.  When I got older, and had friends at UF, I went to many of the gator growl events, and UF games.  I still like the gators and will probalby always be a fan.

It wasn't until USF had a team that I really embraced USF athletics, even as an alumn.  I'd venture to say that the rabid fans on this board are here, mostly due to football (but maybe some basketball thrown in).  Football is the king of college sports, and having a good team and national recognition is going to bring more people to USF.  As we get more applicants, we will be more selective....  So yes, I agree with your assertion.