Attendance: Turnstile vs. Ticket Sales

[Joe]

Bien, It's obvious you do not know what phantom tickets are.

They are tickets that are not sold or distributed, but rather that are added to an attendance count as a guestimate. They were never in existence, nor were they meant to be in existence. They are just part of a number created to get an attendance figure.

In most cases it works like this (not sure if USF follows this exact formula, but most sports entities do): USF has 18,000 season ticket holders. Then they add in students. Then pregame sales. Then add in free tickets distrubted to charities, recruits, etc. They really don't know walkups until well after the game so they'll guestimate walkup tickets sold.

For example for FIU we had 27,114 as our attendance. Actual was around 21,000. Yes, a lot of corporate didn't show, but that 27,114 is based more on an estimation that includes tickets that probably were not sold, distributed, or ever in existence.

This is a good article on it: http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060514/news_lz1s14zeig.html

[USFMikeB]

In today's electronic age, they know what gameday sales are at any point in time.

[bulls96go]

and we care...why?

[Knight_Light]

The reason this is a waste of an argument is because USF makes the same amount of money if we sell 50K seats and only 10K show up.

Yes, USF isn't like most schools that enjoy revenue from every fan that walks onto their campus and into their stadiums if they paid for a tix or not (i.e. concessions, merchandise, etc....), but USF does lose big time when folks fail to show up at RJS..even with tix in hand.

Using the example above (aka 40,000 no-shows) what USF loses is the chance to make a positive impact on those 40,000 fans who didn't show up.

Doesn't matter if those tix were free, offered by friends/companies, etc...anytime you miss out on NO-SHOWS, that is a is another opportunity LOST to put on a good show for casual/non-hard core fans...who...IF in attendance...might actually have a GREAT TIME...and become a FUTURE SEASON TIX HOLDER or purchase tix to future games!

Many USF posters have mentioned how they've invitied friends in the past to games for friends...and because their friends had a great time at a game...those friends are now HOOKED on USF football.

That's why actual fans in the SEATS is VERY important to the $$$$$ side of Athletics (be it for any sport).

[Knight_Light]

Good points, but how many "phantom" tix would you say USF averages, wouldn't think much.

Nut it still would not have effect because or revenue doesn't change versus the 2 counts. Which is my point and I do have problems sometimes expressing it 

Last year we had what 17-18k season tix? Plus about 5k students. We averaged about 26,000 actual bodies according to TSA. Now did every season ticket holder come? No, not at all check between the 30s. However, on paper we averaged 33,000; so there were probably a decent amount of phantom tickets.

In theory revnue doesn't change, but people not showing always hurts so...

Close...here's the numbers for USF from 2006:

USF's Growth Hasn't Included Attendance

By BRETT MCMURPHY The Tampa Tribune

Published: Dec 7, 2006

TAMPA - In 2003, the University of South Florida football team made its debut in Conference USA. Even with a minuscule marketing budget, USF had an average actual attendance of 25,514 and sold nearly 16,000 season tickets.

Four seasons later, the Bulls just completed their second year in the Big East and are preparing for a second consecutive bowl. The school's marketing budget has increased by half a million dollars.

However, USF attendance numbers are nearly identical to four seasons ago.

So why hasn't USF's actual attendance mirrored the growth of the program or increased with a substantial larger marketing budget?

USF associate AD Tom Veit, who has been the marketing director since 2002, said there are "three" big factors attributed to the Bulls' fluctuating attendance numbers.

"The quality of the product, your schedule and the quality of the scheduling time," Veit said.

Since 2003, the Bulls' quality of product and schedule has improved. The "scheduling time" has hurt attendance because the Bulls have had to move several kickoffs to day starts because of TV and even moved some game dates because of hurricanes.

This season, USF's average actual attendance was 24,775 - about 800 a game fewer than in 2003. Season tickets in 2006 increased to 17,166, third-most in program history, but that included a program-high 3,143 "non-revenue" season tickets."Everyone gets so impatient and wants us to sell out the stadium tomorrow," Veit said. "We're very susceptible to outside factors."

This season, USF averaged 4,773 students a game, nearly 3,000 fewer than last season. Veit believes attendance numbers will rebound next year with a more attractive home schedule featuring UCF, Louisville and West Virginia.

"The best answer is we're seeing improvement," said Veit, who resigned his position last month to take a job with Action Sports Media starting in January. "We just have to keep pushing and continue to grow.

"We're still finding our place [in the market]. The program is growing stronger. We still have a long way to go to build our core fan base."

FEWER FANS THAN 2005: Despite averaging 3,000 fewer fans than last season, USF's 2006 actual average football attendance (24,775) was the third-highest in program history.

USF's game-by-game actual attendance: Pittsburgh (30,054), Rutgers (28,579), UConn (23,779), Syracuse (23,353), Florida International (21,960) and McNeese State (20,930).

[Brad]

Why would you make that argument?

It goes both ways - those that showed up for a Knights game in the Citrus Bowl certainly were turned off by that dump (and certainly the results during that nation-leading losing streak) - the jury is out on the Frying Pan and how much fans will enjoy that experience - chain link and all.

You look to sell everything as a loss to USF when in fact the losses you should be concerned about are the ones UCF has suffered at the hands of USF.

That alone should be enough for you to direct your concern to the actual W/L, not the potential loss of a no-show ticket...my, my.

[Knight_Light]

Why would you make that argument?

Because it was true as I was responding to the post about "what's the big deal if 40,000 folks don't use their tix...and a real crowd of only 10,000 show up at a game..while the announced attendance was 50,000".

[Brad]

Okay.

[Joe]

In today's electronic age, they know what gameday sales are at any point in time.

Not true yet.

It will get there, but with the scanners they can tell turnstile count much faster.

[BullsFanInTX]

How did I know that Knight Light had that article at his fingetips.  He has it saved on his computer so he can whip it out anytime USF football comes up in discussion.

Is he going to report it every 5 minutes when we have 3 games over 45K this year?  No, because that would make us look good.