The longer Woolard takes, The less likely...

[Joe]

Not saying Juco kids aren't good talent, for some reason or another they haven't meshed well. We go out and recruit these kids hoping they add something to the team, in some cases they give us numbers in others they don't work out. Regardless of all of that, the transfers and JUCOs have not translated to wins. I don't mind a few here and there, but every solid program has a base of guys who were around all 4 years and can play well. That is why you see a team like Valpo knock off Ole Miss, a team like Hampton knock off Iowa state, or a team like Bucknell take it to Kansas.

I know we don't spend like the other BE teams do, but that doesn't negate that one can be subpar. I agree funding shouldn't be used to hurt the football program, but there needs to be some addressing eventually.

[Bull94]

Not saying Juco kids aren't good talent, for some reason or another they haven't meshed well. We go out and recruit these kids hoping they add something to the team, in some cases they give us numbers in others they don't work out. Regardless of all of that, the transfers and JUCOs have not translated to wins. I don't mind a few here and there, but every solid program has a base of guys who were around all 4 years and can play well. That is why you see a team like Valpo knock off Ole Miss, a team like Hampton knock off Iowa state, or a team like Bucknell take it to Kansas.

I know we don't spend like the other BE teams do, but that doesn't negate that one can be subpar. I agree funding shouldn't be used to hurt the football program, but there needs to be some addressing eventually.

I would love to be able to bring in solid recruiting classes full of high schoolers and give them time to develop. Our situation is much different than these other programs. While they develop into nice "teams" many couldn't compete year in and year out with top notch programs. Usually they are senior heavy teams that play against younger power teams when they are able to pull off an upset here and there.

I believe RMC was forced to go the JUCO and transfer route because he couldn't find BE level talent at the high school level willing to play at USF. Maybe he is starting to make inroads with guys like Howard, Curry, Bozeman, Sakka, etc but only time will tell.

Obviously the JUCO and transfer talent hasn't been able to compete either but he thought it would give him the best chance to win right away. He gambled and lost. I still believe he gave us the best chance to win with these guys. No way any coach could come in and recruit high schoolers good enough to compete in the BE with the state that this program is in.

I believe 85% of recruiting is done by the program regardless of the coach. Even Greenburg said that kids don't grow up wanting to be Bulls.

I believe the situation needs to be addressed as well but it goes much deeper than the coach. I know you do but I'm not sure many on here realize this.

[Guest 1Bullsfan]

Of course kids don't grow up wanting to be a Bull....because there's no star player that you associate USF with. Scratch that, we have Chucky Atkins!   Anyways, you can't blame lack of resources to recruit successfully. Look at Leavitt, I personally, he recruits like this "Hey kid, you want a chance to start? Do you know that UF/FSU/Miami doesn't want you...so prove to them what they missed out"! Leavitt finds kids that CAN PLAY and have a good, work ethic, and HUNGRY. So, why can't RMC do this?

[Bull94]

Of course kids don't grow up wanting to be a Bull....because there's no star player that you associate USF with. Scratch that, we have Chucky Atkins!   Anyways, you can't blame lack of resources to recruit successfully. Look at Leavitt, I personally, he recruits like this "Hey kid, you want a chance to start? Do you know that UF/FSU/Miami doesn't want you...so prove to them what they missed out"! Leavitt finds kids that CAN PLAY and have a good, work ethic, and HUNGRY. So, why can't RMC do this?

Because Florida is a football state.

Why can FSU recruit top 5 football classes every year but not in basketball? Same with Miami??

How about Duke and UCONN? If they have such great basketball recruiting classes every year why not the same for football?

apples and oranges.

[Joe]

Because Florida is a football state.

Why can FSU recruit top 5 football classes every year but not in basketball? Same with Miami??

How about Duke and UCONN? If they have such great basketball recruiting classes every year why not the same for football?

apples and oranges.

Uh FSU had a top 25 recruiting class last year and this year. As did Florida with a top 10 class. Miami had a top 30 class. Basketball recruiting isn't terrible.

Duke is a top 20 academic institution, it is much easier to get 2 guys in with not so great grades than 15. That is why they have football troubles. UConn puts a lot of money into football, just hasn't turned their way.

You comment that 85% of a recruiting is the program is hokiesmoke. Florida was an average program before Donovan came in and started pulling in top recruits. What about Huggins (I hate using him as an example) at K-State. Tim Flyod at USC. Bruce Pearl at Tennessee? Those last three programs have average success at best. Recruiting is 85% coach at most schools, at a UK/Duke/UNC the program can sell itself.

[commbull]

Let see did you know that Knight's budget for basketball at Texas Tech is 8.25 million? Thats FOUR times our budget for basketball.

Huggy's at Kansas State's is 3.01 million thats 1 million more than ours.

So while its always good to point out successes its also good to look at what financial backing has been given to those coaches to succeed.

The avg budget in Big 12 is 4.2 mill the avg budget in Big East is 4.52 mill

USF's budget is 1.98 mill

-----------------------

Our basketball budget is less than half the average in the BE?  Wow!  I don't have much idea of how that gets spent, but our costs of travel to conference games has to be a LOT more than for anyone else, which leaves us even less for everything else.  

[Bull94]

Because Florida is a football state.

Why can FSU recruit top 5 football classes every year but not in basketball? Same with Miami??

How about Duke and UCONN? If they have such great basketball recruiting classes every year why not the same for football?

apples and oranges.

Uh FSU had a top 25 recruiting class last year and this year. As did Florida with a top 10 class. Miami had a top 30 class. Basketball recruiting isn't terrible.

Duke is a top 20 academic institution, it is much easier to get 2 guys in with not so great grades than 15. That is why they have football troubles. UConn puts a lot of money into football, just hasn't turned their way.

You comment that 85% of a recruiting is the program is hokiesmoke. Florida was an average program before Donovan came in and started pulling in top recruits. What about Huggins (I hate using him as an example) at K-State. Tim Flyod at USC. Bruce Pearl at Tennessee? Those last three programs have average success at best. Recruiting is 85% coach at most schools, at a UK/Duke/UNC the program can sell itself.

UF had been to a final four before Donovan. Hardly average.

Give Donovan the USF job with the same pay and budget of RMC and tell me how high his class will be ranked. Give RMC the UF job with Donovan's pay and budget and I bet his class outranks Donovan's here.

Do you think recruits would run from UF if Donovan leaves? No they're building a solid program there that is committed to winning.

Even the beloved Huggy couldn't get Mayo to KSU. He has improved their recruiting but obviously that's his 15% worth.

Tell me why Doughtery can't bring in a top 5 class to SMU? Do you think Huggy could?

Tim Floyd has a ton of BCS money as a recommittment to win now. Didn't say it wasn't possible to rebuild a program or even build one with enough money. They obviously went out and bought an ex NBA coach. Bruce Pearl is a very good bench coach. He does sell his program well but look what he did in his first year with another guys recruits.

as for uconn, let them keep all that football talent the state produces. I'll take the state of Florida's 4th best any day against them.

[Joe]

UF had been to a final four before Donovan. Hardly average.

Yes, one Final 4 and only 2 NCAA tournament appearances over 7 year span...Hardly average. They were mired in mediocrity which led then Coach Lon Kruger to Illinois because he couldn't get recruits to UF (even with their money)

Give Donovan the USF job with the same pay and budget of RMC and tell me how high his class will be ranked. Give RMC the UF job with Donovan's pay and budget and I bet his class outranks Donovan's here.

Ya the budget helped Donovan at FLorida, but he was pulling in players at Marshall. Marshall's basketball program is worse than ours.  Of course RMC's class would be better, UF has national prominence and top 10 facilities that would make some NBA team happy. Where are you going with this

Do you think recruits would run from UF if Donovan leaves? No they're building a solid program there that is committed to winning.

Maybe not now, they are an established national power, in 2000 or 2001 yes.

Even the beloved Huggy couldn't get Mayo to KSU. He has improved their recruiting but obviously that's his 15% worth.

Even without Mayo he has the best class in the country coming in, hands down. Ask any recruiting service.

Tell me why Doughtery can't bring in a top 5 class to SMU? Do you think Huggy could?

I know where you are getting. When did I ever say we could bring a top recruiting class here?

Tim Floyd has a ton of BCS money as a recommittment to win now. Didn't say it wasn't possible to rebuild a program or even build one with enough money. They obviously went out and bought an ex NBA coach. Bruce Pearl is a very good bench coach. He does sell his program well but look what he did in his first year with another guys recruits.

So you told me 85% of recruiting was the program. These programs have been in the dumps with a lot of money thrown at them, all the sudden a good coach and recruiter comes in and they are successful...

as for uconn, let them keep all that football talent the state produces. I'll take the state of Florida's 4th best any day against them.

Ok, I didn't think I fought you on that.

[Bull94]

Ya the budget helped Donovan at FLorida, but he was pulling in players at Marshall. Marshall's basketball program is worse than ours.  Of course RMC's class would be better, UF has national prominence and top 10 facilities that would make some NBA team happy. Where are you going with this

This was exactly my point. What player wouldn't want to play for a program that has national prominence, top ten facilities, perks, etc regardless of the coach? Florida will be a great program long after Donovan if they are committed to it. Especially if they spend $6M dollars per year on their bball budget.

He might have been pulling in players at Marshall but certainly not McDonald's All Americans and top 150 recruits like he does at UF.

I agree that a good coach and recruiter can put a program over the top. In fact they are vital to that program's success. I just believe, in my opinion, that the success and prominence of a program is at least as important when it comes to selling a kid than the coach himself.

Except in the case of R Zook at Illinois! I don't know how that guy does it??

[Joe]

Bull94, it wasn't always there though. The year before Billy Donovan got there they were 12-16 that was 2 years after the Final Four run. Two years later he was able to make some ground up and nailed a top 10 recruiting class.

Money doesn't always mean everything. No one has thrown more money into their basketball than Arkansas, a program that has a good history. National Titles, great fan support, etc. Yet their coach cannot get consistent talent there.

A Coach has so much more to do with recruiting than a program.

Listen I have NEVER argued that a good coach would be pulling in All American talent at USF. What I am arguing is that the way this team has been pieced together has been a problem, in my opinion.

RMC has shown to be  a good recruiter, and even good recruiters can have problems when designing their teams in a manner that just doesn't work. (See: Leonard Hamilton at FSU)