The City Council Woman

[Guest rueben_horowitz]

Business' that don't perform go bankrupt. same thing should happen with schools. it gives them an incentive to perform.

good teachers will be paid more and lousy teachers will be fired.

new schools would replace the ones that don't perform.  entrepreneurs would step in and create efficient well run schools if there is money to be made.

That's how capitalism works. creative destruction.private schools perform so much better because if they didn't then they would be out of business. survival of the fittest.

the system works quite well in the Netherlands and they pay half what we pay per student and get a much better education all around. test scores are much higher and graduation rates are too.

maybe you didn't see 20/20 this week? it was pretty eye opening.

I'm not talking about taking any money away, just letting people decide how they wan't to spend it. People who aren't happy with the product will go spend it elsewhere on a better product.

problem is nobody wants to think outside the box for solutions. they're satisfied with status quo. they think we need to throw more money at the problem.

survival instincts are what drive people to succeed. if the system doesn't use this basic instinct then it will not work. if a teacher at a poor school has no incentive to perform then they won't no matter how much you pay them. if they're fighting for their job then they will.

I like that idea. I'm a true capitalist; if I don't perform better than the avg, I'm fired. Wish it were the same for teachers.

Rueben ~ Sending my kids to private schools

[Guest Ari Hinkelberger]

Comparing private schools with public schools is like apples and oranges.  They are not even the same entity, they don't deal with the same population, they don't run on the same rules.

The reason private schools work better in some cases, is because they work in a different socio-economic class.  Although poor kids do attend Tampa Catholic, the majority of kids who attend that school are from upper middle class families that 1.) have two heads of the household 2.) have WAY more resources then the kid over in King High 3.)  come from stronger family ties and names.

I won't argue with you on competition, because I agree.  But to put a voucher system into place means you have take money out of the current system and allow it to go into the private system.  You can't have both.  You either have a private system or a public system.  The current tax system will not support a half and half.

PLUS the amount of tax credit you would get to attend a private school is not enough.  Average voucher credit is around 5K.  How much do you think it costs to attend Tampa Catholic...Jesuit...?  Like 15K.  

So you can't have it both ways.  And plus the majority of tax dollars that support the school system come from a minority of people who actually physically use it.

Ask your boy Rueben how much property tax he paid this year. (NONE!)

[beastiebull]

Public schools are essentially government schools which make school teachers government workers.  What government agency do you know of that has competent employees and run smoothly?  Why should schools be any different?

BTW teachers are paid fairly.  They are paid for the 7 months of the year they actually work.  If I only worked 7 months per year I would make about 45% less than if I worked 12 months per year and would UNDERSTAND why that was so.  You work -  you get paid.  You don't work - you don't get paid.  Sounds simple to me.

[Guest Ari Hinkelberger]

The problem is not a lack of competition.  The problem is that Americans don't really value education as much as they say they do.  Americans value money.  The only reason anyone really goes to school is because they want a trade that will allow them to make money.  Nobody is really interested in learing history, or learging college algerbra.  They go to college becuase that is what they were told needs to happen in order for them to get a good job.  The market place says that we don't pay anyone this wage without a college degree.

America education system is broken becuase:

1.) standards are WAY to low

2.) the criteria that is required to teach is 10 levels to low

3.) we don't pay teachers enough money, so we don't attract the high quality people we need to teach

4.) classroom discipline for teachers is way overregulated, lawsuits abound and parents have too much control.  It should be a privelage to  go to school, not a right.  If your kid causes trouble, then we are going to kick him out or whoop his ass.

5.) the education system does not take into account the real reason people attend school, becuase they want to be able to make some money when they get out.  High School diplomas are worthless.  I could go on for hours.

Ari Hinkelberger

[Guest guest]

Comparing private schools with public schools is like apples and oranges.  They are not even the same entity, they don't deal with the same population, they don't run on the same rules.

The reason private schools work better in some cases, is because they work in a different socio-economic class.  Although poor kids do attend Tampa Catholic, the majority of kids who attend that school are from upper middle class families that 1.) have two heads of the household 2.) have WAY more resources then the kid over in King High 3.)  come from stronger family ties and names.

I won't argue with you on competition, because I agree.  But to put a voucher system into place means you have take money out of the current system and allow it to go into the private system.  You can't have both.  You either have a private system or a public system.  The current tax system will not support a half and half.

PLUS the amount of tax credit you would get to attend a private school is not enough.  Average voucher credit is around 5K.  How much do you think it costs to attend Tampa Catholic...Jesuit...?  Like 15K.  

So you can't have it both ways.  And plus the majority of tax dollars that support the school system come from a minority of people who actually physically use it.

Ask your boy Rueben how much property tax he paid this year. (NONE!)

It can be done Ari. where there is a will, there is a way. you're big on quotes aren't you?

Tampa Catholic is $7250 a year. according to 20/20, South Carolina (the worst state ) spends an average of $9,000 per year on each student. I'm not sure what Florida currently spends but I bet it's quite a bit. South Carolina could send every one of its students to a Tampa Catholic and still have money left over. Not only that but the teachers would be better paid and more qualified. Test scores would be higher as well as graduation rates.

They can transition into a private system. If you believe, you can achieve!!

Come on Ari. think outside the box.

It's the system that is broken, not the teachers. Get rid of the monopoly and make them fight for their jobs like the rest of us.

[bull2saintleo]

That whole "learn how to teach the subject by getting a degree in education"  is such full so ****.

How about the guy who teaches economics at USF....did he get a degree in education?  NO  

How about our Accounting program..?  (could be the best in the country) does Dr. Stevens have a degree in education.  NO -- he has a degree accounting.

You are correct that their degree may be in ther specialized subject, but I'm sure if you look at their masters and/or doctorate degree's that those degrees are where their educational degree is found.

[Guest Ari Hinkelberger]

We are talking apples and oranges again.

Public school cost more for about 10 zillion different reasons.

1.)  They provide transportation

2.)  They have compreshensive special ed

3.)  Administration is much larger

4.)  More facilitites so up keep is more expensive

5.)  Public schools pay their teachers more (yup its true)

Private schools do many things better, ie. disciplin, accountability, class size

Pubic schools also do lots of things better, ie. access, community involvement, special ed, higher quality teachers.

[Guest rueben_horowitz]

You are correct that their degree may be in ther specialized subject, but I'm sure if you look at their masters and/or doctorate degree's that those degrees are where their educational degree is found.

I'm not following you. Are you saying that a prof in the finance program has a masters or bachelors in education?

[bull2saintleo]

I'm not following you. Are you saying that a prof in the finance program has a masters or bachelors in education?

It is a possibility, not always true.

[Bubbles]

This is all I will say because I am too emotional about this subject and it's way off topic....1. Obviously both Ari and Rueben have NEVER been teachers and can only speak as an outsider. 2. I agree something needs to be done about our school system, however making a pay for performance is NOT the answer!  You would be punishing the teachers who have children in their class that are slow learners, have learning disabilities, etc.  The staffing process in place takes forever to have a child tested and diagnosed with a learning problem, then if the child even does qualify, parents still have to agree to the special classes.  So if a child is in your room and doesn't score well on a test due to a learning disability, you're telling me it's the teacher's fault and they should be penalized.-OK NOT a good idea, you'll lose more teachers. 3. Pay- you're telling me that a teacher who works in a poorer neighborhood works harder and should therefore earn 50% more??  Oh really, come do my job for a day!!!  I have the BEST class I've ever had in my young career and I still come in at least 1/2 before teachers have to be here and I usually on a no meeting/training day go home an hour after the kids leave.  Some nights I don't get home until 8pm after a meeting or training.  So DON'T tell me teachers in poorer schools need more money than the rest of us....we ALL need a pay raise!!! 4.  Because I haven't gone back for my Master's degree does not make me any less of a teacher.  5. All teachers are paid on the same pay scale....the art teacher makes the same as the rest of us and should!!!  Art may be the only thing a child is really good at!!  OK, I'm done.  I will not rant again, even if I'm tempted to by the uniformed public.